Ok people, why the hell are we here if we snipe at eachother like the 0.0 allainces?
Kiongozi posted an interesting thread starter that looked like it would make a good event. And Arch responded with a well written responce. Sounds good right?
Ok now why the hell did the thread go down the pot? Why the hell did a lead up to a slave transport scenario result in an active attempt to derail the thread on the part of at least three people?
Discorps snipes and Nero I can understand, though why we bothered responding to Nero I dont know.
But there was NO GOOD REASON AT ALL for one of us to turn what he knew was a minor little flair on Archie's responce into a petty snipe at Arch.
Yes perhaps Arch might have ignored it, but the point of this is this question. Are we here to argue over stupid semantics and technicalities or to fight an RP war? Are our posts on intergal designed to make the other side look stupid... or to produce an interesting read on the forums and fun for both sides?
I had thought that it was the latter... and that snipes that have no merit RP wise belonged in the OOC corporation flamebait forums. But It seems that at least a few of us disagree.
I also happen to think that our RP war is probably one of the best the gameing industry has ever seen... so why ruin it with things like this?
Perhaps Ill be less pissed about it in the morning, but right now all I see is a damn good RP thread trashed because someone couldnt keep from makeing a petty snipe and giving that asshole Nero an opening to derail what was a potentally damn good and interesting thread.... yes it was Nero who killed it, and it was somewhat our fault for responding to him that allowed the evisceration of that thread to occur (though by that point it was pretty much gone.)... but there would have been no opening for it to have happened if it hadnt been for a certain person's petty snipes.
i don't post on the rp forums but i do read them sometimes... posts like that by nero make the whole rp thing pointless. he obviously doesn't have the intelligence to comprehend that perhaps Archie's response was PART of the original post, so to speak.
The thread was actually going to be responded to by an ISD member due to the fact it was kinda gonna be a pre-event to the big slave transport to the thukkers. To see it go down in flames and have the dreadful thought that ISD might not respond to it now 'makes baby jesus cry'
QUOTE (Horatio Starkiller @ Mar 11 2005, 11:48 AM)The thread was actually going to be responded to by an ISD member due to the fact it was kinda gonna be a pre-event to the big slave transport to the thukkers. To see it go down in flames and have the dreadful thought that ISD might not respond to it now 'makes baby jesus cry'
I had talked briefly with Ashe about the whole thukker thing, wondering if it would be made into some kind of event. I was kind of excited about the whole thing. I've not read this thread yet, but I really don't need to. I know exactly what sort of sniping Gaven is ranting about, and I feel exactly the same way he does about it. I'd probably take more of an active role on IG if it didn't seem like things always devolve to that point.
I'd like to point to Maggot's "We interupt this transmission" thread as a shining example of what we should see more of on intergal. That's like a big FU2 journal, with appropriate responses from allies and enemies alike. It's good stuff.
I just read the thread, and noticed that ostraciing Nero would seem to be the next appropriate response.
He started doing one snide comment in every other thread on the forums a few months back.
Now the bastard is on every frigging thread flaming everybody.
Trolls like him should be taken behind the barn and put out of his misery.
I whole heartily agree with Lady Zhuul. Replying to Nero brings to mind the old expression of never arguing with an idiot as he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
I don't believe that Nero is a lacking in intelligence; simply that he has only negative contributions to make about what is going on in IGS. If he came up with something creative and/or constructive - then hats off to him, I'd be the first to sign up to any event he organised (if it was an even half-decent idea).
Basically what I am trying to say is: don't feed the troll. If everyone ignores him, he'll eventually get tired of posting - as he'll be the one sounding repetitive all the time.
If he does not get the hint, perhaps I can arrange for him to feature in a (less than flattering) interview article in Eve Guardian If it's attention he craves - it's attention he'll get.
ISD specifically requested that type of thread for them to respond to for the next stage in the event.
Of course, we should of known our 'enemies' would jump on it and nitpick every hole they could Remember threads are made 'open letters' to get people involved with the event. Of course its not realistic to use open channels like that but the whole point is so that others can follow.
Please be mindful of that when writing your character assassination reply :s
Actually, Hakera, as no system exists for directly petitioning NPC agencies, open letters are the ONLY way of doing it, realistic or no.
I responded as I did because I saw Archbishop's "decryption" as a cheap attempt to somehow "score points", (the dreaded "metagaming") much like a while ago when there was a "closed" comm thread started for Amarrians only, and I posted in it saying they really shouldn't post on public channels if they expect things to remain closed. We're none of us innocent.
My point is, Kiongozi never even alluded to the post being any way "closed". Perhaps I was being petty, I concede that. However, it's what I've come to expect from the IS of late. I'd also like to point out that I was not the first to go blatantly OOC, and nor did I ever.
HS, please, mate, there's something called Suspension of Disbelief. There is really no reason to mention that the thread was there because an ISD member requested it, as a lead up to being given that Thukker Dreadnought BPO. There's something to be said for not discussing what's going on in the background OOC (beyond a last minute when and where), because it makes everything come off as staged.
QUOTE"I responded as I did because I saw Archbishop's "decryption" as a cheap attempt to somehow "score points", (the dreaded "metagaming") much like a while ago when there was a "closed" comm thread started for Amarrians only, and I posted in it saying they really shouldn't post on public channels if they expect things to remain closed. We're none of us innocent."
I'm not trying to score points with anyone I don't need to. I'll stack up my RP and event ideas alongside anyones and I'll still do OK. The "decryption" wasn't even the point of my post it was ONE LITTLE WORD that didn't have any meaning other then as a "filler". As the original post was an "open letter TO THE REPUBLIC FLEET" I posted it was "intercepted" as an introduction to my post.
Someone (I forget who) had contacted me last week about an upcoming event where some slaves would be moved to the GW and we'd try to intecept them. I thus posted my reply totally in character as an "introduction" that we may come to try and stop them because obviously it was an event idea. Instead some people seem to focus on one word that has absolutely NOTHING to do with my entire post its just a "filler" word.
Tell me this Makkar if I'd posted The young Lieutenant ran to the Admiral and said "Sir we've intercepted a message from the terrorists" would that be ANY different? No it wouldn't be its the same thing.
I'm not mad at Makkar or anyone I think some of us are more vulnerable to seeing "snipes" at everything posted.
I'll post another example. My post about "Primitive Creatures Discovered". That entire deal was to set up my next event idea. We'd have some scientist types snatch the creatures after we've left (which we did see my last post there) and we'd call on them to "stop". We'd move to intercept them while at the same time the UK shows up. All hell breaks lose. Either they're freed, captured, die, who knows? It would've been FUN. Instead Viceroy posts some picture of a danging preacher and nun with a garter and several other totally OOC posts show up by people not at all related to the RP between us and the thread is generally ruined. In the OOC channel it was "suggested" this was metagaming by someone. I finally said "Fuck it" and just posted we were leaving.... event over.
Metagaming.... is that what everyone is worried about? Tell you what. If I'd posted that I had discovered these creatures and transported them to Amarr for study and the UK attacks and saves them that is NOT metagaming where we are involved in an event with both sides. Metagaming would be if I'd said I took them and turned them into lab rats and then condemned UK for not protecting them when they didn't have a chance. THAT is metagaming. Stop seeing "metagaming" in every little post. People like to tell stories. Keep in mind there are people in Eve (CVA and UK) who are creative and have event ideas. I have a website.... a website..... full of event ideas. No one has seen it. Some of you have seen pages of it since I've asked you to look at it but no one has seen the entire thing. I could provide a year of storyline for us if anyone wants.... instead we're worried about metagaming and one side scoring points or something. Don't worry thats not the goal in ANY of my posts.
Now as for Nero. He's a fucking idiot imo. What has he got to do with any of our deal anyway? I see him post his garbage against both sides in every RP thread we start. He's apparently mad at me for doing a nice IC post about him in an earlier thread. That thread I did was a work of art btw. Everyone was drifting toward OOC insults and the thread was degenerating fast and I show up at the "Imperial Monestary of Light" and totally RP my comments. That took alot of writing and it totally blew by some people like Nero who viewed it as an "OOC insult". He needs to read it again because it was completely IC. If he was insulted by what my character said maybe he needs to consider I was right?
Another post, that Gradiant "UK SUCKS" thread about your not helping them into GW. I posted a nice totally in character post SUPPORTING your position to ignore them. Not one single person responded EXCEPT the Gradiant person. I was trying to HELP you guys by saying "HEY UK IS RIGHT HERE" and I wasn't even quoted. Again that post was also TOTALLY in RP character. As roleplayers we have an obligation to help each other against these "non-RP" types like Nero and the rest who continually show up in the Summit slamming everything we do. I mean enough is enough we have enough trouble getting support from CCP for anything then we have to deal with idiots and loser non-RP'ers who pop in for stupid insults and comments about our gameplay. They wouldn't know an Amarrian or Minmatar if they stepped on one.
Enough of my rant. If you see me post a "story" about something keep in mind its 99% of the time an event idea I've come up with and its also 99% likely I've ALREADY talked to someone in UK about it. I don't just have ideas then ask for help.... I ask first. If you don't know about it and post something bad your not only ruining my fun and effort but also the fun of your own alliance mates. Same goes for CVA if you see the UK doing something (like the slave move) keep it in character and have some fun. Don't go off on the "metagaming witchhunt" afraid something bad is going to happen.
Just some comments on Nero's idiocy.
QUOTE"And if you want to bring some spice to the RP scene, why do you act a religious Amarrian slaver? That's the most cliched, old RP character there is in EVE. It's even written in the character-selection process. Every single post of the CVA is "I am a slaver. I am religious. I hate freedom, etc." followed shortly by an Ushie saying "I am a freedom fighter. I will kill you, etc." That's 95% of this forum, written over and over again. Every thread is either anti-Minmatar or anti-Amarrian, and if it isn't it gets turned into one. Thusly I feel justified in posting in them, otherwise I'd never post anything."
This is what he posted. So now he's telling us (both sides) how to add "spice" to our RP. He's a Caldari and not even part of it. Who's lame alt is he anyway? I personally like to think I have a decent amount of RP credibility in Eve as do many on both sides of our conflit. I find this "attitude" of his pathetic.
Ok, Archie, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I realise I'm probably hated by the majority of PIE for my posts on the IS and other forums, so whatever I say, I'm automatically going to be wrong, but I'll try and explain things one more time, adding in recent stuff you'ber provided...
An OOC tip-off from a UK representative is not "intercepting" a transmission. It's using OOC information ingame as IC. Another form of "Metagaming". However, if it was IC, you're quite at liberty to use your spy's information IC.
If I were to send an OPEN LETTER to the British Government, I would send it to The Times, or some other newspaper, and publish it. That's what's meant by "open". Enemies of the state are quite at liberty to read said open letter, because it's open, and published.
Whilst I respect and salute your efforts to bring RP into this game (imo, PIE and CVA are far and away better roleplayers than the majority of U'K) I'm not sure how I should respond to posts on the summit that contain stuff that would not be known to my character by any means - The "third person" style posting. If I were being totally IC, I could not have responded to your post in any way, shape or form, because Makkar, as a character, has no way of knowing the conversation you posted about took place.
As such, could it be said to be roleplay, or storywriting?
I tend to think of RP as being interractive on an IC level. Perhaps I'm wrong?
QUOTE (Archbishop @ Mar 11 2005, 04:08 PM)As roleplayers we have an obligation to help each other against these "non-RP" types like Nero and the rest who continually show up in the Summit slamming everything we do. I mean enough is enough we have enough trouble getting support from CCP for anything then we have to deal with idiots and loser non-RP'ers who pop in for stupid insults and comments about our gameplay. They wouldn't know an Amarrian or Minmatar if they stepped on one.
Yep completely agree. While we Minmatar and Amarr hate each other in an IC we should not be using IC to make OOC jibes at each other. It simply makes us both look silly.
We are in this war for a reason which is fun - there is really no need to bring down to 0.0 alliance levels with REAL dislike and hate for each other. We are playing a role and sometimes we need to see the story is bigger than our own roles within it...
If you ask some 'pen and paper', live-action or multi-player online role-players what their definition of role-playing is - they'd each give you a different answer. Even within those groups you're going to find lots of differences of opinion. This is something that we all recognise and hopefully respect - each person has their own style/approach and hopefully they can work together to enhance the role-playing experience for the whole community.
Whilst there will be times that someone posts/says something that another disagrees with in their role-playing style or the approach that they have taken - we can either work something out or agree to disagree.
Hakera, I see the point that you are making about character assassination and agree that this is not a good thing to do. However, whilst there are many ways to enhance the role-playing experience, there are also some things that are detrimental to that (although debating which these are could take forever and a day). If I see someone who consistently makes postings that are only critical and not in any way creative/constructive (this is all imo) then I'd approach them and see if I could get them to consider another view point. This is what I would like to do with Nero Scuro and it will be up to him what the outcome is.
In the end it's about having fun and trying to share that fun with others. That's the reason I'm a pod pilot, that's the reason I joined P.I.E. I'd like to encourage all who are interested to take part in RP and to do so in a way that creates positive RP opportunities for others.
edit: just read Hardn's posting - he summed it up in a lot less words than me
Nero is an idiot. Just ignore him. Responding to him only validates his ridiculously nonsensical attempts at RP. He is nothing more than a jester on the sidelines of our RP.
We have lots of members of the peanut gallery that try to horn in on our plotlines in ludicrous ways. Just ignore them - most everyone else will. It just devolves into thread hijacking which is what happened to this thread, quite sadly as it would have led to a great event. He would have looked plenty ridiculous saying, "They actually expect the Republic to respond? How stupid!", only to have the Fleet do just that.
Let's all keep our head above water a bit on these threads and try to be supportive of each other's efforts in an IC way. Lots of, "We will not stand for this brazen insult of Amarr traditions. Give us back our property or die." etc. posts.
And please, do not break character. Ever. OOC comments are in every thread now on both sides, for no real reason.
Makkar, my problem with your post. Was that you latched on to an immaterial point. Something that was just done as an intro by convention and attacked it rather than posting in an IC manner refuting the actual point of the thread. That along with our responce then gave Nero the opening he needed to destroy the thread.
If WE act like that and go at eachother in manners than intend to make the other side look stupid. Which is the only reason I can possibly see for your post TBH. It looks to me as if instead of attacking Archs words you attacked his little opening on a technicality to make him look stupid since if he was so stupid to have decrypted an open letter he was too stupid to have anything else to say or something like that.
Im sorry but that type of attack has no purpose but to hurt Archbishop rather than actually improving any RP. It is not condusive to continueing RP and rather will go a long way towards killing it as no one will dare add little flares like that for fear of being torn apart by someone just for some minor little frill in the post.
If Discorp and Nero hadnt already been out to derail the thread at all costs... it wouldnt have mattered. But they were, and you opened the door for Nero to do it, especially when you attacked that point a second time in your second post.
If you had posted your second post first instead of just attacking Arch and nothing else it wouldnt have been so bad as the responces could have ignored that in favor of the bigger picture the way mine did to your second... but since you only posted that comment first it made it an obvious line of attack against Arch that Nero latched onto, and that resulted in the thread getting derailed to the point of us going OOC.
As for that asshole Nero its really quite simple. He doesnt find the Amarr-Minnie war interesting, so he instead of creating more RP decides that if its not interesting to him its pointless and should not happen and does everything he can to derail every and all threads about our war. We should ignore that asshole except in space, where he should be podded repeatedly until he gets sick of bothering us and goes somewhere else.
In the future ask yourself this, what is the point of your RP post? Yes you are not going out of character. But that doesnt mean that its automatically good. If the point of the post is to do nothing but hurt and not to build any RP then why do it? RP can be an effective smacktalking tool as we all know, so lets be careful not to use it on eachother and think about what we are posting before we do.
QUOTE (Gaven Lok'ri @ Mar 11 2005, 08:37 PM)Makkar, my problem with your post. Was that you latched on to an immaterial point.
Exactly. Whether Archbishop intercepted and decoded the message or read it in the morning paper really doesn't matter. It was a means of opening up his post. Taking a pot-shot at him for it validates idiots like Nero. I'm certain that's not what you meant to do, but we can't go around nit-picking people's roleplay/storytelling or it's all going to seem pretty static.
"umm, hey, I've got this post I want to use to respond to the ushra'khan post...I'd like you ushra'khan guys to proof-read it first and make sure it's in the spirit of your thread."
You can see how silly that would become.
Congrats people for pulling that thread out of the gutter. I suggest that we all delete the OOC in the middle voluntarily rather than having the mods do it for us.
As for Discorps last comment, assuming from it that he is actually going to be reading this thread.
Yes our war is somewhat stagnant... but you cannot create new just by destroying the old. Which is all I see either your or Nero's posts accomplishing.
If we destroy the one working RP war we have we DONT HAVE ANYTHING LEFT. Is a stalemate worse than no RP at all?
The Amarr-Minnie Conflict is staying in one place... but its alive, you cant say that for the other potental conflicts really.
If you want to help break the stagnation then do something that revitalizes a dead RP conflict rather than just trying to destabilise the one working one.
Just because the doctor has the right diagnosis doesnt mean that the cure he proscribes is correct.
QUOTE"An OOC tip-off from a UK representative is not "intercepting" a transmission. It's using OOC information ingame as IC. Another form of "Metagaming". However, if it was IC, you're quite at liberty to use your spy's information IC.
If I were to send an OPEN LETTER to the British Government, I would send it to The Times, or some other newspaper, and publish it. That's what's meant by "open". Enemies of the state are quite at liberty to read said open letter, because it's open, and published."
Who cares? It was an intro line in a long post and nothing more. If my post had focused on the superior Amarr detection methods and our new machine or whatever I'd see your point but in reality it has NOTHING to do with my post it was filler to start my RP and nothing more. I can't believe you latched onto it like that I mean its just nothing..... theres nothing there......
My post was intended to add some "spice" to the thread by indicating that in the future the Amarrians may try and stop this slave transfer.
THAT is what you should be focusing on not a "nothing" intro to the RP story.
As for "open letters" that sounds like a UK deal I'm in the US we don't have that here. Again to sit and argue semantics with me rather then focus on the 99% of my post that was good RP just amazes me. I just don't see the reason for it because it serves absolutely no purpose at all. I mean whats the point?
Why doesnt Makkar just admit that he didnt feel like writing a reply and putting effort into it to make it good rp, so he decided to ruin Archbishops post by blowing something out of proportion?
I will not be a hypocrit and say I never flamed someones post before, because at least one time I know I totally tore one apart, BUT I have changed. If I dont have something to say that is in good roleplay spirit I wont bother saying it.
From what I have noticed on the forums...most of the posts are really just a waste of time for the person who started the thead, the people who bother to read the new post, and the person who posted it.
Alot of the posts have been cliche' Amarrian/Minmatar posts, and I dont see much wrong with it. I expect each side to come out with propaganda, and I expect the other side to post with their own propaganda....but people need to understand that you dont actually have to win those posts...so dont let it get heated or let it run on forever. Here is how your average post should go
Amarr says his crap
Minmatar says why the Amarr crap is wrong, then presents why Minmatar is right
Amarr says thats nonsense and that God will lalala
Some debate (meaningful and well thought out points, not childish nonsense, is good)
Both sides promise to meet each other in combat and fight for what they believe. END.
Then there are storyline posts, which people should recognize as such. Only post if you are contributing to the story unfolding!!!! Then there are character story/history posts... I hate it when people write a cliche story about themselves where they are the best thing in the universe and they kill everyone and save the day.
DO NOT MAKE YOUR CHARACTER SUPER MAN!!! CHARACTERS WITH FLAWS ARE INTERESTING. And thats how I write my own character...not to be the savior of the galaxy, but to be HUMAN and INTERESTING and UNIQUE.
I wish more people would try to work with each other as fellow rp'ers to help RP as a whole, and not be so damn selfish about making yourself look awesome and better than everyone and everything. You know some of the best characters or sides in stories are the ones that are flawed, misguided, passionate, change their hearts, learn lessons, lose, die....ect ect.
WORK WITH EACH OTHER and lets not get stuck on petty stupid things (MAKKAR). I would hope that everyone will realize that no one will win the RP war. Who would want it over anyway? Then what? IT WOULD SUCK. So be glad that it is going on and just try to fill it with more and more great stories.
It would be interesting to read a story about Garreck and Maggot being stuck out in 0.0 because during their fight they got jumped by a bunch of pirates, but since they are both honorable they decide to join forces and fight their way out and set a date and time for a rematch!
The roleplay has only stagnated because people let it. The people who arent making an effort need to begin doing so. Give some depth to your character. Make him different. Dont be a cookie cut character. Have alterior motives...maybe a minmatar who is addicted to vitoc still and has to perform missions on the side for an amarr to get the drug. Maybe an Amarr who has not yet found his faith...
Anyways...I hope everyone puts effort forth to help build the roleplay up with both sides and not tear it down.
some great points here, the most important thing said that people should pay attention to in my opinion: "people need to understand that you dont actually have to win those posts"
Making someone look stupid in an online forum may make your e-penis grow an inch, but it doesn't accomplish anything as far as improving the game, which is why CVA and UK roleplay.