[OOC] Open for discussion: meta-gaming
Fellow EVE addicts,
my gaming experience is recently spoiled a lot by what I personally call 'crap RP' as it is in fact meta-gaming.
To briefly explain the term meta-gaming is using OOC knowledge or weaknesses in the game engine to 'RP'.
Let me name some examples:
Raven making up 'civilians' that were aboard the Minmatar ships during the rally. No one can prove or disprove it - it was not announced beforehand. There is nothing we could do about it apart from looking bad, which is the only aim.
Some corp (I forgot which) 'poisoning' the water sources. Again: nothin we could do or have done about it as it is well without the game mechanics. If something like that would be announced in advance it could be used as the staging grounds for an event or an ongoing storyline. This way it is, again, just used to point fingers at PIE and say 'Ha, ha! You dumbwits couldn't prevent it! We 0wnz y00!'
Bragging about the killing of convoys by corps we are not at war with. Again, nothing we could do about as the game mechanics don't allow for it and our war slots are full. Meta-gaming at it's finest.
We could drop to the same level and commence 'planetary bombardement', 'commence slave raids, enslaving hundreds of thousands of inhabitants of planet X' or make up stories of 'the Freedom Fighters slaughtering an Amarrian peace delegation'. You get the swing.
I personally hate it. If it continues I will simply stop to frequent the summit and finally just stop to RP, as it doesn't make sense that way.
Either we stick to the stuff that both sides can actually influence or we make it a dick-waving contest.
I am not posting it on the official board but here in hope to get some fruitfull discussion without the random, uninvolved dickheads and trolls who always have to throw their bullshit into the ring there
I find it very irritating that they gank a convoy or two or drop some drugs in orbit at a planet and blow it up and have then by that action poisoned reservoirs and what not.
Then they shake their fingers at us screaming "you failed the Empire".
It's ok to be creative but this is just poor and unimaginative.
I dont think we should limit ourselves to merely the game mechanics, because, lets face it, its not exactly that geared to RP. If we did, freedom fighters could never liberate slaves.
Im not sure what the poisioning is. I think Corins, innocent crew members killed may be a bit harsh, but i dont think he meant harm by it.
But, look guys, i sense alot of anger about this RP story line we are pursuining. I mean, in most matari's eyes, you are the bad guys, and if you came to a peaceful protest and fired upon us, of course we are going to wave our hands about it. We are matari, you are Amrrians, you enslave our people, and PIE protects those that enslave it. Of course our characters hate you, and of course they would be outraged by this event.
But its all IC fun. and thats it.
Look, heres the deal. The peace rally thing was just an idea for us to link the exodus functionality of slaves being illegal in minmatar space with the players, the idea was to get your 'normal' player if you will, to get engaged in the story line. And the radiing, well thats more of the same, getting the wider community involved in some RP and some fun.
Now, many of your people stated that we were recruiting, which is not true, but we cannot prove we did not. But it is amarrian propoganda, and while our characters IC deny it, OOC hell, we dont care, its to be expected and all part of the arc of our war.
And we do raid slaver convoys, im not too sure about people saying how great they are to do this when they arent at war with any corps that defend amarr space, its a bit much, but its their RP i guess. However, we will do so, because, bascially, our goal is too free slaves by raiding convoys, and your goal is to stop terrorists doing such things, when you get down to it.
Also, we hate OOC things we cant answer too as well, hence the outrage at the EG article about freeing slaves which we couldnt answer, but you guys werent angry about that?
I think we do need to set a limit as to what we 'make up', but you guys extend the truth as much as we do. I wouldnt want it to reach such levels as we rely on pure game mechanics and nothign else, as that would make all freedom fighters redudndant wouldnt it? and there is no official word from the Amarr Empire that you serve it, apart from your word on the matter, which we accept.
I think people should be free to make up stuff to increase their RP to a limit. but this needs to apply to both sides if it is to work guys.
And lets not let RP stuff fall into OOC stuff. One of our corp members suggested dropping our war with you guys the other day, for various reasons, and everyone said no. and you know why? cos everyone in our corp likes you lot, has a lotta respect for you, and think your damn good RP'ers.
by the way, the suggestion was raised as, it was put, we have no hope of matching you for numbers and strength.
But thats not why we fight you, we are the terrorists (dont quote me on that ) and your the big bad guys. Its works well RP wise. And its always a pleasure to fight ya. But you cant expect to be seen as the good guys. Anyway, i hope my comments were taken in the vein they were meant to be.
Good to know Khaldorn
The reverse is true for you guys too...
But Tharrn has a point.
We can't simply make up stuff after an event like suddenly stating you had civilians onboard the ship which was blown up or that you have poisoned a planets water supply as that kind of thing has no end.
If we go down that route it will just end up with Amarrians talking about thier latest orbital bombardment of Pator (and how crap the freedome fighters were to prevent it) or me claiming to have been specially appointed as the next Sarum heir... etc...
We do have to stick to the mechanics and background of the game to a certain extent
Making up stuff outside the game mechanics like 'freeing slaves', which doesn't directly affect other players, or 'poisoning' water supplies and blaming PIE for not preventing it are a bit different from my point of view.
Personally I didn't get involved in the EG thingy as it was already inflamed enough when I first saw the thread. I am with you though in that I wouldn't 'trash' slaves, too.
Maybe we should aim to create more shared events and storylines where both sides have a chance to influence the outcome as that would make for some really good stories and RP.
As I said that poisoning of the water supplies could have been used as a nice shared mini-plot with follow ups. We are even willing to limit the number of people we are allowed to send when matched fleets are needed
Agreed. I dont agree with the poisoining water and then blaming you guys for not stopping it. The civilians were streching it a bit too. Perhaps you should chat to Ashe/Coriin, he's perfectly reasonable OOC, im sure if you point this out he will agree to it. Perhaps if he had stated that he was bringing civilians along before hand it might have carried some more weight.
But, thats a few comments by a person, not by us all. Is there truly outrage at us screaming Amarrian Scum? (EDIT, this was a ! and not meatn to be )
Thats what we do, our characters hate you guys. I perceive it as perfectly reasonably for our characters to shout out about being fired upon at a peaceful protest and saying your scum for it.
Truly, none of us care OOC about being fired upon and killed, we all get blown up all the time dont we? But its a good RP line to follow for us guys, and we followed it. I thought everyone was enjoying another spin on things?
But then, gentlemans agreements are better than strict limits ive always thought, most of our people on both sides are pretty reasoanble.
So, you should have a word. But we'll continue calling you scum, cos Khaldorn thinks you all are, specially Gaius, ooo he hates him
There's a big difference on roleplaying and, as I like to call it, "God-playing". Making things up that have to place inside or outside game mechanics. I remember Metatron doing this with their purchase of some obscure Minmatar planet and strip mining it :?
The game mechanics simply do not support proper roleplay however. I've found myself constantly frustrated at events (they still need to get back to the UDI event, seeing as I STILL have that bloody corpse in my hangar). This is the reason why I dont want to roleplay events. I fly around Amarr occasionally, shoot people down, get shot down and have some friendly IC banter about it in local. But thats pretty much it.
I'm going to wait for Shiva personally and go from there. But right now it looks like Worlds of Warcraft will take preference and if EVE doesn't improve my account is poof.
Khaldorn, I don't think we care about being called scum or being fired upon. The war itself is good fun and (again for me personally) much more enjoyable than fighting smacktalking, safespotting 'pirates'.
I just reached a high level of frustration during the past days trying to fight the windmills of those three examples I posted.
Events don't even necessarily have to be staged. I think the transport of those Neris stones, when properly announced, could kick off some nice plot for example. Defending is always more difficult, so I doubt that we would mind if someone would drop us a hint shortly before the transport starts not to bring a fully fledged fleet of half a dozen battleships when only three escorts turn up.
There is ample opportunity for outnumbering each other in chance meetings and the standard raids and patrols
The only thing irking me about the "Pator massacre" is the sullying of PIE's name.
I'm still a somewhat recent PIE member and why did I join them? Because their reputation as an honest corporation can not be matched.
They've had the same vision from Day 1 and despite the disadvantages it will put the corporation in (no 0.0 mining, all-amarrian fleet) in the bigger picture it enhances it's reputation and the experience of being in it.
Sarkos calling us pirates and all the jibes at PIE not keeping their word, when no word was broken, is a bit irritating because it's in effect more of an OOC attack on it's honor than an IC one.
Sure we are Amarrian beasts who kill Minmatars, no doubt about that. But we keep our word
Khaldorn - to be honest the 'banter' over the whole pator event thing has kept me quite amused and it certainly stirred up things on intergalactic...
In the same way my thread highlighting Minmatar hypocrisy has today.
I don't think any of us take it personally as long as it does stay IC
But just going back to what Tharrn said - we cant purely make things up to make each other look bad.
My thread re 'hypocrisy' relates to a real in game happening. The Pator peace rally whatever your view on it relates to a real in game happening... in which we do have an influence. The stuff about planets being poisoned or civilians being on ships - is stuff we cant do anything about which is purely made to make us look bad.
I am sure if we wanted to we could produce all kind of storylines about babykilling Minmatars - or even one about my 95 year old Ni-Kunni grandmother being gang raped by a pack of Brutors - its easy to do and in slightly bad taste and your opponents can do nothing about it...
I didnt read anyone telling you that you lied mate. I could be wrong there of course.
But yeah, we are calling you beasts who dont respect a peaceful protest but thats our characters doing it.
Anyway, this upcoming slave raid, Maggot may erm... leak.. some information on this to your people i think. I also think the sarum guys and smak will be RP'ing some stuff on it. But we are still trying to organise it all, i dont know what ive sparked off here, but we gonna keep running with it while people are interested. But its not often we get togethter for an event like this, nor is it often we manage to get a fair proportion of normal (hate that word but it'll haev to do) players involved and RP'ing and all together and that.
The only thing is, im not shooting people cos im recruiting and sorting people who are mailing me about it and answering questions and ..... well, id prefer to be shooting people But the protest was fun, we even got in the news, so hopefully this will be fun too.
Aye, but i have no control over anyone in my camp, im no boss I suggest you just have a quiet friendly word with the person(s) responsible OOC and smooth it out. I think many of us latched onto it as a massacre thing, perhaps we got a bit carried away. Happens to the best of us. Anyway, im just a cog, id sugesst a freindly CEO chat to sort things out. We wanna keep it all friendly
For the slave freeing thing on sunday... Wouldn't it be OK if every minmatar raiding party could contain in their gang a known enemy? A gang takes the wars of the members, isn't it? I might be mistaken though...
The main problem is, by getting in minnies from other corps, you take away our chance of fighting back (for concord would shurely smite us...). AFAIK the above sugestion should solve that (again, I'm not shure).
Good to see we can all talk about this like civilized folks.
I have to say I agree with Tharnn's frustration about "meta-gaming," as he called it. The minmatar hate the Amarrians with a passion...of course they would want to to make the Amarrians look bad. This is understandable and acceptable. But all too often I see folks "make up" stuff that nobody has any control over in such a way as to either make PIE (usually) look bad, or to cover irresponsible actions with RP.
Let me take this a step further (and probably really piss some folks off...)
Darax, for some reason, has found it appropriate to shoot at anything and everything he feels he can get away with killing in Providence. I haven't read the latest rebutals to Hardin's post calling Darax out on his piracy, but I guarantee MM is gonna come up with some hose-job roleplay reasons for Darax's straight up irresponsible behavior, making in character claims to justify his piracy.
If roleplayers are not responsible, meta-gaming can lead to a lot of "justified" griefing, and it would be a shame for that kind of a breakdown to take place. There are a lot of non-roleplayers taking advantage of the current situation in Providence. We, as roleplayers, have a responsibility to the roleplay community to show all of them how much fun roleplay is...not use roleplay as a means to shoot at whomever we please.
Well said Garreck
Im afraid not mate. Its not seen as a direct affront to PIE by the non - freedom fighter people, more of a chance to free many of our people. It is probably many of there first time at such an enterprise, and most of them dont RP or PvP, so to put them up against PIE is a bit harsh.
The idea of it is to provide a bit of RP fun for the guys and get the wider anti-slave community involved. Most of them dont wanna PvP. I reckon they might sort amongst themselves more peaceful protests in the future, which i sincerely hope they do.
I think alot of them dont even know you guys exist. They dont know most of us exist
Like i said, its not my place to tell them what to do. You'll need to have a word with them about it. But i think they talked to light K about it already?
To my knowledge, Darax didnt simply go out and shoot everyone with a low standing. But, like i say, im not MM, so i dont know the specifics of all that.
They fight the war their way. They are willing to take the consequences of doing so. But we are not in a formal alliance with MM or anything, we dont have much of an intertwined relationship atm. Although we do have freindship with them, there guys are a good laugh
None of this was 'planned' out btw. I just thought the rally might be a good idea, so shouted at everyone. And then suggested this raid might be a good idea so shouted some more. Thats not to say im the great leader who sorted it all out, everyone else pitched in to sort it all out.
I just shout alot
Also, id be careful about pinning people down to game mechanics, cos that road just leads to the narrowest of RP if both sides start using it. And i know we both dont want that.