More thoughts on the war
After the battle tonight and various accusations and flames of inability to have 'fair fights' and something short of a refusal to fight anymore by some of your members, possibly said in anger at the defeat you suffered and certaintly the turning of the tide against you in this war recently it does seem like many of you are taking loosing rather badly.
It was not many months ago when night after night Pie was facing but a handful of FoM pilots and defeating us night after night as we either fell prey to you rmany ambushes or rapid attacks. Victories were rare for us and the losses many. We could rarely bring many to fight your numbers you used to field. That lead to much advice and talk between us about how we could become more organised and also look for new members at the same time to bolster our numbers resulting in you forcing some to join us by declaring on them.
Since then Oracle/TPFM returned in the last months and reformed into their new corp and our numbers of effectivelly doubled on a regular basis with an average 7-15 bs being able to be fielded on good nights plus support. AmAx have become scarce fighting alongside you recently have lead to decreasing numbers on your side.
So naturally the odds are now in our favour to field superior forces. Yet again we face the age old question on how to we get the most fun out of our war for both of us which is also a sustainable one. I believe I am not alone when I desire for no side to be destroyed completely or attacked to such a degree that fewer battles are joined, if anything i would want to promote more battles between us as that is what we play Eve for.
Neither of us can predict with any certaintly how many ships we can field on any night at any hour. Neither can we tell someone to go home and not join in. This leads to several things, uncertaintly at what we face (therefore gather maxmium numbers), and the percieved lack of 'fair fights' where either side dominates very quickly the other.
Battle in eve is very plain, there is no time for banter roleplayed or other during the course of it and there is thansk to th eopeness of eve only optional preferences for roleplay which entail most rp is done on the forums.
You may or may not recall I made suggestions here on how to achieve the 'fair fight' more often in this thread. Such an idea is short of the totally controlled environment of a scripted battle but I believe will lead to greater sustained conflict between us which is also more fun.
basically, im my eyes, we suffer from several things:
- the desire to use the biggest and best ships
- the desire to use the best equipment
- the desire to keep our clones intact
- the desire to fight alongside and against real people
- the desire to be involved in any way we as players can be in the storyline
- the desire to win
those reasons lead us to be defensive in most cases of our ship and hence leads to not fighting either by docking/safespot/avoidance and goes the other way by leading both sides to form as big fleets has can be mustered in most cases to ensure victory by numbers as such is the case in eve that the 'bigger blob' will win in most scenarios. Leading to the opposite of what we want to achieve and that is fun as the inevitable waiting and tactics come into play until the odds favour most.
so what do i suggest to have more fun and fun which is sustained and more often?
a)use cheaper ships
b)have a no podding rule between all of us
c)some unofficial coordination of sides in OOC channels to ensure that a fight will always be possible much more often.
The tough part would be getting people to agree to that and the exceptions that are part of the great variety offered by eve other than scripted events (dont forget about my frig tournament idea). I am basically saying we agree to enforce a artificial ship class balance between us as can be done. if we fight a lot more in rifters or punsihers and cruisers, we shoul dget mor efights more often as the cost of loosaing is much more suatainable so even several battles could be fought in the course of a day.
I dunno, its late, im tired/drunk and I just dont want to see a good thing end with everything turning nasty as various accusations are levelled against each side about the concept of fair fights and so on.
With shiva fast on our tails and soon the ability to have bases we have a new option of fleet/war play coming. i fully intend to construct bases just for that purpose to give us soemthing else to think about in our battles.
Hak congratulations on last night ... we(i) choose to fight last night....cus thats what we do , we had reports that your reinforcements where brought up 30 mins in advance...plenty of chance to run away... we did not.
You had the chance for a long time to fight a fairly even battle , i think we where in ashab for almost a hour with a roughly similiar force oposed to us , yet your fleet choose to blob us bringing in every man possible.... i dont blame you for that.... winning wars is about crushing the enemy... having fun is not.
PIE will clearly have to adopt some new tactics to answer us being blobbed.....that will include a lot of running awa... tactical withdrawals and alot of no engagements ... like u lads have done to us for months... again i dont blame you for that .
Regarding roe , its not going to happen , fixed battles no ,ooc talks before a battle YES i am all for that ,however this requires some degree of trust and i must say i don t trust u all.
I'll make a brief comment, totally OOC.
The fight between TPFM/Ora and everybody else has always been that PIE are outnumbered - since the very early days, PIE have been outnumbered and potentially outgunned - even with Blacksheep/Amax, Dark Seraph and Imperial Dreams, the numbers have always been in TPFM/Ora' & co's favour.
Over the past couple of months people have suddenly decided that "we don't like the Amarr way... we won't RP it, we'll just declare on PIE". We have more official wars than any other corp in EVE, and just recently the numbers have absolutely skyrocketed, and I've seen like another 3 wars against us this week .
Now, Oracle used to have the idea spot on - these wars aren't about "demolishing the enemy" or "making the enemy corp run away"... These are RP wars and have to be treated slightly differently.
It's just seemed, at least in my eyes over the year I've played the game - that especially over the past 3-4 months, people have seemed to forget that, in preference more for 0.0 style wars that happen.
I mean, first there was NOINT - whom, well, didn't enter the wars because they opposed the "RP" way of life, moreso because they thought "hey, it's PIE, lets' say I don't like slavery and declare on them", followed recently by a couple of others.
As I said in the OOC last night, it disgusts me to see these so called "bastions of the Minmatar fight", turn up to combat in Amarr ships - wtf is with that? That's basically admitting in RP terms that Amarr IS superior. Not the kind of message you want to put across that "we want freedom", or more likely "we want to kill all the Amarrs".
I'm going to leave this thread, I've said my bit, totally based on my opinions and behalf, and as I said at the start, totally OOC.
As Golan said, tactics will change, but we will continue to fight outnumbered - something that necessarily did not happen when we were on the upper hand, and when the Tempest was something to be feared somewhat (when projectiles actually used to hit things).
If you want to win... then bring numbers and recruit everyone... but you will kill your RP war if you do so.
What you minnies are doing is wonderful... if this was a bloody 0.0 space war. Bringing in everyone and their brother from every side possible... is a good way to win a war. Its also a good way to make the other side not find it fun anymore, and it forces the other side to either back down on their RP stance... or lose.
Can you honestly say that you "like" being allied with groups that have no buisness at all being in your war? I mean Vronsky for example is 1. a gallente based corp. and 2. HAS BLOODY AMARRANS IN IT? Why the heck are they attacking us? And they arent the only corp that has no buisness attacking Amarr... just the most obvious of them.
We are not only outnumbered... but you use every ship against only amarran ships. So we take hits there in that you have the defense of amarran ships, the EW of caldari ships ect in your fleet.
Again... you win the fights... but you lose the RP behind them.
Other things that tick us off is the simple fact that whenever the odds arent 2 to 1 against us... we dont get a fight. So you again are playing to win, not fighting unless we have no chance of winning. Why not attack when you have a 2-3 ship margin instead of 2 battleships for every one of ours.
The only reason we keep getting clobbered more than you is that we dont run from a fleet that is almost the same size. If we played the game the same way with retreats whenever the enemy fleet is the same size as ours... then we would have a roughly equal amount of kills. Start commiting with even numbers... or even semi-even numbers instead of two to one and you will see PIE give more respect to your wins.
The nature of the war has changed, and our tactics will have to change with it... PIE is capable of riseing to the challenge... but it will destroy what made the minnie/amarr fight something special.
Amarr was temporarily overrun on Friday by six -MM- pilots (4 of which were in cruiser).
I docked in Expert, knowing fully well that there were 4 cruisers outside (as they had just shot at me), after some time it was evident they did not want to move so I switched from my Arbitrator to a Crucifier frigate.
I undocked, intending to hit MWD as soon as I saw space and then try to harass the enemy with hit and run tactics.
After watching ENTERING SPACE come for the 4th time (most unusual) I sensed something had gone wrong, once it was up to 10 times I was trying to remember where I had put my clone again.
By the 50th time ENTERING SPACE flashed I suddenly got response, I was sitting in my cloning station. First time Majaraw is podded (no implants so not a problem) and he never managed to see the enemy.
It seems the lag is still a huge issue, the cruisers had their drones out and it seems criminal flagging/war flagging is still a drain on the client.
It pissed me off quite a bit, the -MM- were very corteous and allowed me to retrieve my body, I have no beef with them.
But when game mechanics make a simple thing like undocking impossible to do, then these developers piss me off. My body was located 13 km away from the station, my killing wasn't an instant kill.
Here I was, outnumbered but ready to stick it to them and never got the chance due to game mechanics.
P.S. Yes I also agree that it sucks having Amarr ships in enemy fleets, I'm ok with the Gallente characters and Amarr characters, they don't have to conform to their races per se.
Well here is the thing if I may defend the corps you say are jumping on the bandwagon.
I believe i am not alone when no one wants to destroy totally the other side, as that serves no purpose but put an end to what we like most. It has always been about sustainable confiict.
Also I sometimes find it very degrading that you belittle the newer corps entering the fray as something less then people jumping on the bandwagon, i find this 'elitist stance' some take very worrying in terms of attracting more people to roleplay in eve. They roleplay as much as you do barring the restrictions you place on membership and ship choice. Now if that turns one corp into a roleplay corp then I'll be damned if I see how being as CCP allow you to fly any ship and be any character without having the slightest bit of impact on your game. The freedom fighter is much more romantic to play than the evil slavers. So we attract more people to our side.
Yes restricting your ship choice entails disadvantages, has that ever stopped you defeating us? No, Did you find a solution to the entrance of NOINT into the conflict, yes, along came Blacksheep who conviently are able to fly any ship/setup and employ any character they choose.
You know very well that atm, a minmatar battleship is about as much use as a luxury yacht in combat barring certain small engagement scanarios. Thanks to the uselessness of projectiles in the main part and the cap relay nerf on the other. Amarrins battleships however are the best at tanking, the best at damage dealing, the best at NPC hunting and the best at mining. So you wonder why some people fly them? If an equal sized force of minnies went up against an amarrin ones in their respective ships the minnies would be tore apart and you damn well know it. That is why I switched to the raven, I have flown minnie ships all my life and specialised skills for them. The same goes for Sion, luckily the need for missile skills allows us to cross train into caldari ships as well.
That also stems from the earlier days in our conflict when it was just FoM and we faced larger numbers of CVA all the time and my need to use EW to counter your larger numbers and ability to outtank our damage. You must remember, Amarrins are weaker at EW, the minnies use that in their ship loadouts, they have to if we go by the storyline. It is in fact one of the great mysteries of mine why you do not use EW aside from warp scrambling frigs. Yes mid slot layout is against it, but who needs to tank damage when your enemy cannot deal it. I find that tactical choice surprising not to utilize it.
Now you say about us not fighting when you show up, the same goes often for when i tootle down to Amarr by myself or with maggot and the closest i see someone is either in a frigate killing cruiser which I stand no chance against or suddnely I am being hunted by several ceptors/frigs/cruisers/bs. Its not the lack of willingness to fight, it is the sad fact that the odds are very narrow and predictable on someone winning or loosing in Eve. None of us can predict what we will face when we head to each others 'home'. The number on each side or the availibility of anyone to attack or defend.
I mean that last week when you rolled in with thirty ships to pator, there was soemthing like five people availible at that time to fight you who were close enough to join, only three of those in battleships to face your forteen or so. What do you expect us to do? Warp into your fleet and get ganked? Of course not!! Do you know how sad it for me and everyone else when the closest we can hope to get to you in hovering near the edge of the grid in a ceptor because both of us know that any battle cannot be won against such odds.
I know of no solution to solve that age old problem of achieving the 'fair fight'. I can only offer suggestions on how we might be able to get closer to such a situation. You play the 28 wars against you card a lot, but what of those 28 wars and 800 characters do you see on the field? I think what five of those wars are non-existant, 20 of them are corps bringing only one or two members occasionally with only a few like Freelance, SMaK and Masuat'aa Matari bringing a group each. How often do we outnumber you, rarely, it basicaly depends on luck on who is on and availible despite such seemingly overwhelming odds against you.
Only if it is a FoM fleet only will I be in command and you know we dont mind loosing our ships (we're quite used to it) The hold order was given until the second fleet coming from pator caught up with the advance fleet in ashab as numbers online indicated you had more people than were present and a normal gate trap was suspected.
Now, you can turn us into this 0.0 monster that wants only the win if you want and cares nothing about rp, but you know damned well that is not true. Mainly for the reasons stated in my first post do you hold for reenforcements to bring the odds in your favour unless you are confident there is a chance you can beat the super tank/super dmg amarr fleet.
AmAx turned up late to the battle and your allies are few, with the return of TPFM/Oracle to the fray you now face the increased chance of greater numbers against you more often (not always of course). The odds in a space of two months have swung in our favour on the popular nights and it is you who now must recruit allies and adapt to fighting larger forces.
We all want to be a part of the saga that is our war, we all want to have fun and fight the many battles, winning or loosing, but primarily having fun. The 'fair fight' is a myth that is rarely achieved but I would prefer the encourage more conflict by minmising loss by making selective choices about ship/modules used rather than the need to form blobs constantly to esnure the protection of the expensive assets.
This sentance is just included to make sure I am more l33t than Horatio at long posts. Please ignore this last sentance if you so desire as it will have no impact upon the preceeding paragraph above or the following posts below.
Ok you talk about rp wars and o.o wars, now obviously in our rp wars we don't want to 'completely' destroy you, (not that it's possible as I've heard rumour of exactely how much you've been mining in o.o) but at the same time you CAN'T go bragging about how many wars you have and how we haven't smashed you into the ground yet on the summat! It's just plain conceted. And quoting the number of pilots is useless what if you'd faced 30 frigates instead of a mixed fleet, would that still be unfair odds?
I could of brought a Battleship to the fight last night, in fact I was in Yulai when our other foes the NMA decided to launch an operation, someone had to lead this and I felt that what was heading your way was more than enough so I led a bunch of miners to face 3 Apocs, 3 Omens, and a bestower... there was possibly more I dunno.
It was GREAT fun and I'm so glad they didn't scramble, I was tanking 3 Apoc's but unfortunately slight lack of co-ordination and the fact my group was approaching from 2 different directions made bad co-ordination during the fight, and I had to tank the duration from after your fight till the fleet you faced arrival at the NMA op. Just because we lacked serious damage output (they tanked for once!) And we had no scramblers.
On a side-note look at our ships compared to yours... your ships are alot more suited to being self sufficient. They can tank with 2 large armour reps constantly and still fire there weapons. Ontop of that your large weapons can hit frigates... I'll not even bother telling you the amount of ammo I've wasted trying to hit a frigate with the fastest tracking gun on a battleship. And our Tachyon equivalent weapon doesn't even hit other battleships... let alone anything smaller.
We have to bring mixed fleets cause our BS's feel how CCP intended them, useless against anything other than another Battleship and even useless against other BS's if using 1400's. Hence we don't fly 20 BS fleets with 1 or 2 interceptors as scouts.
Both sides do bad things to each other, like shooting each others noobs... but sorry if this is a bit hypocritical are your members gonna take the time to do show info then look at the employment history then decide whether he's a noob or not, or are they just gonna lock and open fire?
If you choose to face a larger force then that is your choice, sometimes pilots don't even get a choice. Unfortunately you like to choose times when half our members arn't online and that half is the battleship half to come "patrol minmatar space with 20 Battleships, which isn't a force we could counter. Next time I'll convo your fleet commander and tell you to go home cause you won't get a fight out of us, would that make you happier?
And on ship loadouts... a fleet of gankageddons would rip through ANY amount of tanking, a lone gankageddon does! Which leaves us with one counter... EW & dampners, Minmatar ships are already severly gimped... we don't tank as well, our guns don't do as much damage, we don't have the meds for EW. Only thing we have better than other BS's is speed! Oh whoop dee do I'm so happy about that, a whole 50ms is gonna severly reduce the amount of damage I'm taking. Your allies don't use solely Amarrian, so how can you have a go at our members and allies not using soley minmatar?
For a long time the people your at war with suffered at the hands of CVA and it's allies, over and over again... while you shouted with glee at shooting the same person's battleship down over and over again.. did you think it was fun for them, losing a BS every night?
War is what you make of it, but if they only way to fight is having matched fleets... its NEVER gonna happen. One thing is you find the minmatar pilots take ALOT more risks that the CVA do, how often do you see a lone CVA BS (maybe with 1 or 2 support craft) in Pator compared to how often you'll see a lone (MM/FoM/PRM/Whoever else) BS (maybe with 1 or 2 support craft) in Amarr? We give you far better opportunities to take down a Battleship than you give us.
Me, Darax and Demi faced a group larger than us and the fight lasted about 15minutes... now THAT was a great fight both sides enjoyed themselves, compared to the time Me, Darax, Mags and a few others faced a much larger force and the battle lasted less than a minute, that whole minute of adrenline musta be fun for the 4 BS(which was an equal fight for once) till the rest of your fleet arrived.. did you have time to lock before Darax's Typhoon popped? Was it fun warping to the battle to find no enemies left to engage? Your insistance to bring in everyone sat outside a gate in another system spoilt the fight for the minmatar side, and probably most of the amarrian side, I imagine there was alot of "awwww, I didn't even get to lock Darax stupid lag" comments from your own side.
Me, and Darax have also face 7 vs 2 odds in Pator and it was a great fight... if they'd a little more organised they might have won... it's not all about the number of Battleships which you seem to think it is. Honestly we though there was at least 2 enemy BS's turns out there's was only one.
Me, and Darax, and Demi (and prolly alot of others) would love another fight like the first one described above. But if your solution to seeing us is to bring in 3-4 vs 1 odds why should we even bring our BS's to amarr and look for a good fight? Which is meet by the age old arguement but you could have 56 Battleships sat 2 insta jumps away (this is where insta jumps have spoilt it) because you know your support is in very short reach. If we didn't have them then it's 2-3 minutes per gate your support has to go through. Currently I can get to Amarr in about 5 minutes from Pator.. normally I'd be lucky to be in Ourapheh by then.
wooo big long rant arguements for both sides galour.
damnit Hakera I was going for longest post... 1093 words to 1106!
ps I'm curious who the hell else is fighting in amarr? 120+ ships destroyed and 110+ pod kills over the weekend? You out-blobbed o.o
If I may comment as a rather neutral (although biased ) person:
It will be very difficult for PIE to recruit more people to the cause for some very simple reasons:
- as you said being the Freedom Fighter is much more romantic and who doesn't want to be the hero?
- I daresay the CVA is about as big as it will get. If you hang out in the Amarr channel for a night you will find that there is a great number of 'Amarrians' who are anti-slavery or even outright anti-Amarr (right now it is hip to be a 'wannabe Minmatar' like Dash Prik). The slaver role is quite unpopular and those who RP Amarrians are not only facing the other races but their misguided brethren on top of it.
- there is a lot of bandwaggoning going on. I bet that 90% of the corps currently declaring on PIE wouldn't do so if there wouldn't be another 20+ wars already.
PIE will probably never ask for a break, but give them some rest when you feel that the frustration level is getting too high.
I know what I am talking about: being outnumbered 7:1 in the Oracle/1PG war was no fun. We were beaten into pulp night after night right in our homesystem with nothing much we could do about it and had to ask for a ceasefire to regroup (which we did by merging with the original, unmolded PIE ).
PIE will have to remember the days of hit-and-fade attacks, scouts snooping in Minmatar and finding the backward enemy bases on a nightly basis (my, was it fun to force Oracle to move headquarters about daily ), striking at the logistics, evading fights you cannot win. If you try to stubbornly head-butt your way through it pretending that Amarr still has the upper hand, as it has to be that way, all you'll get out of it will be a lot of frustration. The 'enemy' has formed an alliance that outnumbers and outguns you - I don't think anyone can blame you if you change tactics
Remember the old maxime of PIE: WE choose when and how to fight. Think unconventionell.
And guys, don't forget sportsmanship - there is a human being on the other side, too Station camping should be a natural nono for example as there is neither honor nor satisfaction in killing someone who has no way to react. Doing it means to knowingly cause grief.
I personally believe war is war.
You had better organisation and more ships in Amarr so you 'won' on this occasion - it is as simple as that.
As Hakera has said we have often outnumbered you.
I WILL NOT COMPLAIN about it UNLESS we get accused of cowardice or of ineptitude - which is hardly the case when we lose more ships only when outnumbered 2 to 1.
Pilots joined PIE knowing the situation with our wars. We CANNOT be expected to win every battle and we SHOULD NOT complain when things go badly.
What we should CELEBRATE is the fact that despite the odds we are willing to fight and are prepared to DIE FOR THE CAUSE and it would be a lot more 'fun' if the Minmatar did the same sometimes (A few exceptions Horatio/Darax/Khaldorn Murino, Maggot, Zoolkhan) excluded.
The tides of war ebb and flow. While you may be successful at the moment I have NO DOUBT that the pendulum will move again...
War is tough and bloody - no one should not expect it to be otherwise.
I had lots of fun seeing the AMAX fleet ganked in Teon on Saturday, for what its worth.
This was a long read....
In response to Gaven's post, regarding my corporations in last night engagement and in general.
Our war declaration on PIE was based on our involvement in the PRM, which led us to working closely with corps like FU2, Liberty Inc, AWEI and SMaK. We flew with those corps against the pirates operating within PRM space (mainly Bosena). However, when PIE came a-calling on PRM space, all we could do was watch as those pilots we'd previously been fighting alongside went to fight and die and there was nothing WE as a corp could do. Hence we came to our war declaration, it was a decision based upon doing our bit to defend the PRM from your incursions. In the end, our decision to join the PRM led us into a war dec on you, it was not the other way around.
We are not a Gallente based corp, all of our pilots work and live within Minmater space, and specifically inside the PRM claimed area. Yes, we are mixed race, roughly 50/50 Gallente and Minmatar. Yes, we do have Amarr origin pilots, and the one I think you're specifically annoyed about (Vert Ism, was present last night in an Omen, which was despatched with alacrity by Rodj Im told) is a new player, and at the moment he can only fly Amarr frigates and cruisers. I will encourage him to diversify into other craft. Last night's engagement was the first time we have committed anything larger than a cruiser to a combined fleet.
Just thought i'd say theat when i'm in minmatar space on my own i often get 2 tempests and a Vigil of Paratwa Ra camping my malediction at a gate, most frigates and cruisers will run from me (although the chase can be fun) and i still do use my battleship in that area even when within jumping range of a gate I engage if outnumbered (ask zoolkhan although i do won't tend to fight 2 battleships in it)) so all i'm saying is that it happens on both sides.
QUOTEJust thought i'd say theat when i'm in minmatar space on my own i often get 2 tempests and a Vigil of Paratwa Ra camping my malediction at a gate, most frigates and cruisers will run from me (although the chase can be fun) and i still do use my battleship in that area even when within jumping range of a gate I engage if outnumbered (ask zoolkhan although i do won't tend to fight 2 battleships in it)) so all i'm saying is that it happens on both sides.
yes we are aware you amongst others maintain bases in onga!
if it helps i will never run from a lone ceptor!
All this 'but you have', 'but we have', 'but you first' will lead nowhere. I think Hakera came here with the good intention to turn things for the better for all involved parties. It doesn't mean you'll have to have staged fights (as Golan pointed out that's urgly ) but a bit of friendly discussion helps to remember that all involved want to have fun and it's in fact good to know that your 'enemy' cares and doesn't want to anihilate you (which is as I think true for both sides here but not the norm in EVE).
QUOTE(right now it is hip to be a 'wannabe Minmatar'
it is inevitable, join us or die
QUOTEPIE will probably never ask for a break, but give them some rest when you feel that the frustration level is getting too high.
tbh - a 'break' is very easy to have. You only get the pvp if you hang round the main systems 99% of the time.
It should be easy for Pie to farm mindless npc's in stain!
QUOTEif it helps i will never run from a lone ceptor!
QUOTEtbh - a 'break' is very easy to have. You only get the pvp if you hang round the main systems 99% of the time.
It should be easy for Pie to farm mindless npc's in stain!
...and then the summit will be full of reports about how the Freedom Fighters own Amarr and mocking questions where the Defenders of the Empire are hiding while you run rampant in Amarr It's not that easy