Fighting without purpose?
One thing that has always troubled me is to what end do we fight. Sometimes we come to you. sometimes you come to us or we meet in the middle, but what really gets to me is why we fight other than that we are enemies.
Alliances fight over territory, or squables over someone blowing such and such a ship up or slander for eg, but we fight over something we cant affect directly.
I might not be making sense here, but I do get that feeling sometimes that when I face you, Im not sure excatly why I must other than you are our enemy. There is no real goal to our fights.
There is no reason to actively put our ships in harms way most of the time unlesswe believe the odds fair or good. For eg, we can hide knowing that you would get bored and leave and visa versa. We losing nothing by not fighting.
Bit of a ramble I know. But just wanted to see if oter rp'ers felt the same?
OOC: I may be taking a break from 'freedom fighting' mainly because of above. And also as fun as the banter (roleplay) and war is, it is not very profitable and I do need to head to 0.0 to get some isk in again as I am nigh broke
sorry to hear that hakera!
our battle and war serves our ppls and gives us purpose. more than that it is also a constant struggle to improve oneself and the universe we live in. plus it's the only thing keping me away from my estate on the 7th moon of asrios where i will let my life end in pleasures after i retire.
honoured enemy i wish you good luck in deep space and look forward to crossing the blades with you again
QUOTEwe can hide knowing that you would get bored and leave and visa versa. We losing nothing by not fighting.
Yes you do.... you lose face.
Much like last night, big force of minnies comes to cause trouble, pie arent around, we form up with a similarly sized fleet, you all scatter and/or log.
Now lets look at the night before that one, relatively small Pie+Black sheep fleet flies into Minnie space (5-6 ships) you lot (as in ebil minnies) show up with 10-12 ships, we organise ourselves well, and just do our best. We sent your lot packing.
You have to question these wars sometimes. most of our enemies either run at the first sign of trouble, or log. Makes me wonder why you dont just surrender sometimes, then we can use our war slots on someone that actually wants to be at war!
NB: not particularly referring to you hakera, but all of our enemies in general. It occurs to me that most of the minnie players are happier mining/trading/agents/0.0 hunting. Seems they are only being in a war with us cos its "cool".
I feel sorry for those of you that try and bring to fight to us in empire space with no help from your corpsmates and allies.
I fight for a purpose ....your end, and the subjugation of the minmatar tribes......accept Amarr hegomony and you shall be put out of your misery.
ooc: well you are certainly succeding in boring us to death, hence we take up anti piratcy again.
Instead of going to 0,0 and make cash i would make a large minnie corp that could put up a fight set aside your differences........you have a much larger population base to recruit from........you outnumber us many times if only you wherent so fragmented........the minnie resistance reminds me in many ways of "Life of brian" with the Judean liberation front & the Liberation fron of judea etc. etc.
here is the thing,
between you & blacksheep you actually outnumbered us again 3 to 1 (we had 5 BS and 2 frigates & 1 cruiser at the end). Zool had to leave early well before you turned up but stayed logged on to keep numbers up. Sadly with Eve and with knowing how you loadout your ships, we know exactly what our chances are of success. given our use of ingame chat for coordination to your TS which clearly shows difference in response time. Sadly the only way to beat armour tanked apocs/armas is with ew or with better tanks, which apocs reign supreme in and our ew is normally lacking which you make up greatly for with your gank squad known as Blacksheep.
It was obvious from yulai that sheep (who we had equal numbers against us) were falling back to draw us in to you lot (who brought in iirc 8 battleships, 2 ceptors) making us outnumbered 3 to 1. If yu expect us to fight you on those odds or fall for the the age old leave a few people at a gate and the rest on the other side, you should know better.
I have said it before, but I do find it amusingly ironic the fragmentation which obviously is not intended, but seems very apparant in my attempts to foster support bear little fruit as the majority who occupy the racial channel are PvE only. Its not for lack of trying, we contact as many people as we can before we go into battle as we know we will face greater numbers sooner or later and few come. We had a few PRM with us which is cool but that is it.
Im not going to 0.0 yet btw, but will have to soon, I can only afford one more ship loss before I must gain enough isk to cover the next.
And if all we have to lose is face, what is that to losing a ship needlessly? We can run and fight another day, that is what we are meant to be, 'raiders' so to speak.
Indeed - in a way this is how it should be
Minnies fragmented terrorists relying on hit and run. Amarr big battle fleets destroying all resistance in their path... Strange how it has happened naturally Maybe it is something to do with the psyche of those who chose to play the various races. - could be a good field of study for a psychology student.
BTW Hakera when PIE started we were outnumbered 4 to 1 vs Oracle... but we persisted - and ground away and kept pushing and eventually we gained experience and number - but I would say even now less than 50% of our numbers are dedicated pvpers... Although if you do get a reputation for having lots of fights you tend to attract more of those sorts of players!
Good points are brought up on both sides... we recieve intel that you have a massively outnumbering force on the other side of a gate...
QUOTEAmarr big battle fleets destroying all resistance in their path...
then why do you hide other side of gates? We've driven off the enemy by getting them to pull back to a gate so you can all jump through hence we win cause you have retreating in trying to draw us into a trap. But it isn't us who have retreated its you! We have just decided that we've driven you off and claim that a victory where as you sit at a gate being bored. PIE use this tactic often... unless we know your not on the other side a golden rule is to never follow a CVA ship to a gate. This tactic is old and lame and though it catch's a few of us occasionally its pretty spineless, your not even taking risks.
CVA do not enter Minmatar space half as much as we enter yours, and if you do enter ours its usually Battleship all the way with a few scouts were as we actually bring in proper mixed fleets. Seems most of you can't fight in anything other than a BS.
Both sides are accused of cheap tactics and having spoken with Golan just the day before image how angry I was that Blacksheep tried to smear the rep of other corps onto us, because you are willing to perform those cheap tactics on our less honourable allies has put in our minds the question of "Well if there willing to use them in that situation, what stops them from using it on us should they get angry at us as well?" PIE has tarnished itself to the eyes of members of Oracle(I don't speak from them all) and before you think its just you, members of Oracle are also not best pleased with the behaviour of SMAK either.
People are already disappointed with the bad things going on with the server and lag, and the use of cheap tactics is lessening it further. I know Golan is angry with a certain person in Oracle but there is a way of getting around that and he knows it, where as getting rid of the cheap tactic can destroy entire corps. What would PIE do if all the minmatar freedom fighters disbanded all the corps and joined the school again?
Apart from gloat on the GalNet for a while which quite frankly most people don't care about. Were angry that the CCP team are very much pro-amarr, there's a rule which states no images allowed on the forums yet saboath are capable of doing this without repecusions. When a couple of minmatar post rp stories there almost instantely de-railed by someone and moved to the library because of that.
I can't remember which it is (your only allowed to post 1st person or 3rd person) but trying to create a post that the community can enjoy to read which isn't 1st person is quite hard work and to have it kicked to the library is just like a kick in the balls. 1st person makes people think "What an egotisitical bastard!" (suits Golan very well) but doesn't suit the minmatar race so much(more pre-amarrianism)
further to this events are very much pro-amarr, whatever event the amarr race are involved they always succeed, and we are always running away with our tail between our legs. This is probably because were suppose to be the under dogs and your suppose to be superior, and to change that changes the entire prime-fiction from this point in time onwards which is something I think CCP are downright not willing to do.
Erm I could prolly right more stuff but having just come home from work i want some food!
edit: its just been pointed out to me that the rules for posting images has been changed since saboath started posting them.
Take a look at these two theads Horatio and tell me if you think PIE are happy with Mods behaviour either?
and for the record several Amarr threads have been removed also... as you can see Orestes has said they will 'discuss' it!
With regard 'dishonourable' behaviour - I am afraid it will always happen - all we can do as reasonable people is to try and minimise it and discuss it somewhere not on the public EVE boards.
With regard how we enter your space and you enter ours that is something neither side can do something about without some kind of prearranged battle and that imho is fairly lame.
And both sides use those tactics... We have had individual PIE pilots engage Oracle ships only for another 5 to jump in from the next system - seems hardly fair.
We have had the last 4 weeks a number of Minnie pilots hanging around picking on our noobs in Amarr in virtually impossible to catch dual MWD ruptures - another most annoying tactic...
No one (including PIE) is whiter than white - so no one should be throwing stones in the glass house!
Actually Hardin also had a story moved to the library. I replied in the general forum asking why and the rules and my post was locked. I'm as upset as you are about this Library deal and I've emailed Orstes the moderator asking him to reconsider the third party stories in the Summit. I read Corins story there the other day and replied to it in typical Amarrian fashion only to find it moved. I'm very upset about the moving of posts to the Library which is why I emailed the mods.
As for cheap tactics Im not sure whats going on. I haven't seen anything in the PIE forums indicating we're out to smear anyone. Before I came back to Eve (and joined PIE) I was in a well known corp, was well known myself and was an alliance president at one point. I left because I don't care for the "politics". When I came back I joined PIE because I like the RP and it seems a very "unpolitical" type corp. If there was garbage here I'd leave and to date I've seen no evidence of any smear campaigns.
For Hakera to me the "conflict" in battle goes as it should. An overwhelming Amarrian power (the "fixed" one) with the opposing understaffed but big-hearted rebel Minmatar power (the "underdog" one) fighting them. The hit and run tactics are very realistic (look at real terrorism and how it works). I do understand what you mean when you say "other then enemies why do we fight". It is true we aren't really fighting over anything "physical" like a regional alliance would.
Im not sure if the ability to build player stations in empire space will be part of Shiva (or beyond). Maybe someday we can put up defenses in our empires (gate guns, warp disruptors) to defend against incursion and have a PIE station and a PFOM station and fight over them. That would give us something tangible to fight over but as the game is situated right now all we have is the storyline provided by CCP.
Hakera - on a related note somewhat to last night
Blacksheep fell back to the Ourapheh gate in Yulai because Phoenus was heading in in support. They were going to engage, knowing they were outnumbered, but due to the technical problems which have plagued Phoenus for the past fortnight, he repeatedly ctd'd at the gate and a retreat was called.
QUOTE... which you make up greatly for with your gank squad known as Blacksheep.
Probably one of the coolest things ever said about the Blacksheep. At least, I'm thinking it was a compliment...thank you, Hakera
Hakera, you are quite mistaken about my little squad having equal numbers as our enemies last night. When I began pulling my men back, we had a scorp, a megathron, an interceptor, and a caracal. Pho was on the way with a raven, but was having...technical difficulties. (Hope that raven came with some kind of warranty.) We faced (as far as we knew) a tempest, a raven, and a typhoon...as well as Smak's Megathron and Scorpion. Plus your support frigates.
Hardly a fair match. Now, you are quite correct that PIE were quick to rally superior numbers and come to our aid. That's what happens when a sizeable terrorist fleet makes its way into Amarr space.
(OOC)Sometimes I feel people forget who/what it is they roleplay. It doesn't make sense for terrorist freedom fighters to be able to go toe-to-toe with an imperial fleet, nor does it make sense for an imperial fleet to go into terrorist lands with less than obscenely overwhelming firepower. Horatio, you and your Oracle pilots do well to make your little incursions into Empire space and frustrate Amarr pilots with you hit and run tactics. Same with most of the Minnie roleplayers. It is the way of things.
As for behavior in the forums/server performance/behavior in combat...well, there's a lot of frustrating stuff taking place. Russo in particular can be infuriating, but he's been taking steps to help folks realize it's "nothing personal." He plays a passionate, out of control fanatic, and he plays it well. Sometimes I try to pull his leash a bit because he goes overboard (I work with him in real life, and we've had many heated discussions about what is appropriate.)
I take a noticeably different approach to treatment of my enemies...some of it is my personality (I like getting along with folks, even if I compete with them) and part of it is the nature of Garreck being Gallente.
Blacksheep pod their enemies. Most of us have "colorful" backgrounds of some kind or another, and take great pleasure in the kill. However, I do try to remind my men that their actions reflect on PIE...obviously Russo didn't care, and that will need to be dealt with. Most of my men listen to me...last night, after dispatching zoolkhan, we let him pass at the gate in his pod, on my orders. Arbitrary? Yes. In a full fledged engagement, I wouldn't care. But he ran into us in the wrong place at the wrong time and got straight ganked without a chance. No reason to rub it in with a podding.
I'm rambling. Bottom line is, there WILL be conflicts/hurt feeling in a game that encourages such competition. Try not to take extreme people like Russo personally, and don't generalize about an entire corp because of the actions of one. My Blacksheep are good men behind the keyboard, and their ingame actions are only the actions of "refined hooligans." Pirates/Bounty Hunters who have seen the light...
"Guest" above is me.
Thinking more of the topic at hand...sometimes it does feel like CCP need to do a bit more to facilitate the rp conflicts. Make it feel like we are fighting for something tangible...not just chasing fleets back and forth until equal numbers are reached and the fleets clash.
I don't have too many ideas at the moment, but I know Oracle and PIE have "scripted" RP conflicts, and I would ask any of Blacksheep's enemies to be open to doing the same with us. Feel free to contact me with any ideas.
I for one am glad we let zool go, since that blasted 'ceptor didn't pod me, I think in return!
Well, bottom line is that Zoolkhan is an honored enemy, and he kept a promise to me a little while back that could have got him in big trouble with his allies. It's not that I won't ever pod him, but I won't do it under the above circumstances. He deserves better.
Dont get me wrong, I enjoy everything I do, Its just a pity we are called cowards when we run against a numerically superior fleet whom well know we would not stand much of a chance. Defeating tanked apocs is something I do on entropy a lot, it is easy 1 vs 1, but in fleet action it is a lot harder. Both sides really only engage when the odds favour us or are even. You cannot expect either side to launch headlong in now very vunerable battleships into a fight we know cannot be physically won.
I dont really care for the pod (RoE) rules, I have one in place with Pie, but Sheep have shot our pods from the beginning and we accept that, but even still I do not shoot their pods. Especially your new members (whom were quite obviously new from sitting at a gate without moving or checking local).
I like the fighting per se, but I do feel that we lack an overall purpose to our fighting. Ok we shoot each others ships up, we do agent missions which destroy amarr slavers or spies, but that is the extent of our role. It just feels empty as if we 'cant make a difference'. Ok - we can rob you of a ship, but is that achieving our goal, not really It gives us soemthing to harp about on galnet, but losing a ship which is easily replaced is hardly making a difference unles you are happy (many of you are) with such roles.
Sheep - dont take that the wrong way btw - I just infer that your ships are setup to 'gank' using the best availible pvp setups, it is as much a compliment as a moan. We do the same, and you fill a good niche where pie were previously vunerable in ew, aside from that radar+4 backups come in handy.
But please dont moan when we choose to to run (if possible) in the face of superior odds. Losing 'face' is not as important as losing your ship sometimes and again, we lose little by not fighting. I do not moan at you for not facing us, other than jesting IC in local.
If anything this is as much a tribute to Pie's organisation and tactics as a dismay at our own and a desire for things to be more 'even' so we do not have to sit at safespots and doing so would risk more than 'losing face'.
....a dream I guess :?
QUOTEI like the fighting per se, but I do feel that we lack an overall purpose to our fighting. Ok we shoot each others ships up, we do agent missions which destroy amarr slavers or spies, but that is the extent of our role. It just feels empty as if we 'cant make a difference'. Ok - we can rob you of a ship, but is that achieving our goal, not really Sad It gives us soemthing to harp about on galnet, but losing a ship which is easily replaced is hardly making a difference unles you are happy (many of you are) with such roles.
In many ways I agree with you (see my post above). Unfortuantely until we have some kind of actual physcial "stake" in empire space (like a regional alliance does in 0.0) there is no tangible reason to fight other then roleplaying.
I wouldn't take "coward" to personally. It may be said in the heat of battle. Garreck is correct that terrorist ships shouldn't be able to match the might of the Imperial fleet. I view it kind of like Star Wars (massive empire, small rebellion). But unlike the movie we need some game content that you can have a chance of defeating.
Maybe a post on Summit about this lack of higher end content would be in order? CCP has provided us a rich storyline and history but being in empire space there really is nothing to fight over except RP pride. I can understand why after months of that you'd get frustrated.
Alot of good topics been started in this thread, espcially about our RP and its honest value in EVE atm. I am not sure about most my fellow Amarr, but I usually carry a few slaves in my cargo hold when I fly a pvp ship. Sort of a reward for any slave lucky enough to remove me from my ship. I also make solo trips into PMR space to purchase slaves occasionally, though sadly long after most my allies and enemies have gone to bed.
The fact still remains that we only fight for honor and "bragging PR rights" on Galnet. There was a certain person asociated with the CVA in the past who fought and encouraged us to fight these wars like they were for our lives and to use all means to destroy our enemies. While in honest truth that is probably how we really would fight each other into extinction, none of us, least not I wish to see my enemies totally destroyed and then broken up.
Point being we fight because we enjoy it as part of our RP with each other, thats why most our fights are honorable and there are ROE. I feel this is what seperates us from 0.0, is the honor we give to each other most the time.
I agree with Garreck about how some of us are a bit extreme "IC" I have personally pissed several people off with my hard line Amarrian views, only to convo them and explain and appologize later :twisted:
I know and respect many of you here friend and Foe alike and it is US who must help influence the future of RP in Eve. Our future. Contacting CCP and giving them ideas is always the best way to do this.
Things like the Role Players gathering thats been held I think 3 times now are excellent. Last time the idea of "tangible" objects for us to fight over such as slaves was talked about. The idea to have a weekly turn in of "slaves" for all you terrorists to "free" them by handing over to an ISD member was discussed as well as many other story and scripted events.
I would encourage all of you to attend those meetings or at least pass your ideas along through others. Randiun Maral heads the thing and I know Hardin, Hakera, myself and others usually attend when we can. It is also a great place to meet many other RPers from other races, a thing I enjoy as outside our lil "Amarr-minnie" circle I hardly see other RPers.
My last comment will be on the status of the CVA vrs PMR,FOM,ORACLE. The fact that its 1 united group versus 3 fragmented factions says it all. I don't understand what prevents your side from working in greater coordination with each other, but I do hope that your "Fragmented Tribes" can one day find a strong leader and really give the Empire something to worry about.
Hardin made a rather good point at the beginning about the mental attitude of our two sides and how ironically we fit the roles so well. The united Amarr utilizing massive fleets, while an unorganized splintered faction of Minmatar rebels use terrorist tactics to fight against us..... Would definitly be an interesting study on Human behavoir characterists.
Wow that was quite long, oh well Hope to see you all on the battle fiend soon. Die Minnies! :twisted:
Well Considering Oracle was put in its own group among PMR(PRM) and FOM is a great honour. Personally I'm still getting a bit angry with server affairs especially last nights lets boot everyone off farsical(pharsical?)
The Oracle/FoM force found themselves reduced to a quarter of what it was, people crashing at moons to log on at gates and get destroyed before they actually get control of their ships, and with intel you were in ashab and the fact that local went beserk with recognisable faces.
A fight obviously wasn't going to ensue, and obviously we wern't going to surrender as there's no way to actually make us do that! There's this stalemate area between us and nothing either of us can do to gain the upper-hand.
A force the size you were we wouldn't off confronted anyway the lag would have you kill most of our ships before they got past the gate-lag.
And this was possibly another of our most organised forces we'd ever brung out to have it fall apart due to the server, its a bit crap eh.
QUOTEAnd this was possibly another of our most organised forces we'd ever brung out to have it fall apart due to the server, its a bit crap eh.
Its a bit crap, I agree fully.
Things will improve tho, but even the patience of the Pious is running low these days
TBH Horatio the fleet PIE and BlackSheep put together last night 28/32 ships was the largest or virtually the largest (I think a joint PIE/ID/DS event was larger once) so we would have taken some stopping last night.
We also lost about half our ships scattered across Hrober, Hrokkur and Heild in the big crashes which aint exactly an ideal place for an Amarr to start crashing
In the end we got most of the fleet back on and mostly reassembled - and I think voice comms played a large part in this... Eventually we got going again and headed to Hedion as we heard you were there. As we realised there would be no fight we moved into two known pirate systems in Amarr space where we did actually catch a pirate cruiser before heading back for home...
We caught Frosty's Typhoon early on and Maggot later fought a battle with 3 of our pilots and lost his Megathron. Despite the two BS and one cruiser kill it was still a fairly uneventful evening for most...
We may need to invade CA for a challenge